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Old 07-20-2007, 09:18 PM   #1
Shannon Clark
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Default Minimum amount of carbs?

So I was just wondering if I could get a few opinions on this.

I've been doing IF for a while now (had the other thread going) and am thinking I might start trying to reduce my carbs lower as I think I'll feel better this way.

My diet is modified though and I'm moving slightly away from pure IF in that I'm eating two large protein/carb meals in the morning (pre/post workout) and then again right before bed, then snacking on fat sources during the day.

What I'm wondering though is how low I could take my carbs, particularly post-workout without starting to see a decline in my workouts?

Right now I have a shake and a bowl of oatmeal before working out (20 grams carbs), then after the workout again I have protein shake, oatmeal and then cottage cheese, which is totalling about 54 grams of carbs (30 from oatmeal and 24 from cottage cheese).

Would it be alright to cut the oats out so then I was left with just 24 grams carbs from cottage cheese?

My daily intake of carbs then would be about 70 grams or so plus carbs from vegetables (which I eat quite a bit of so likely put me around the 100 gram mark).

My protein intake would be 175 grams and fats would come in at 75 grams.
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Old 07-21-2007, 08:26 AM   #2
Chris Forbis
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Obviously, trial and error will tell you the answer, but my personal history says averaging 100g of carbs a day should be sufficient for most training. It will largely be dependent on what type of training you are doing.

By my count, you will be at 675 calories from fat, 376 from carbs, 700 from protein, which seems a bit high on protein (relative to everything else). You may want to up the fat some. You might look at a Zone baseline with some carb blocks deleted and replaced with an equivalent amount (calorie wise) of fat blocks.
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Old 07-21-2007, 10:30 AM   #3
Shannon Clark
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Thanks for the replies. I'm hoping 100 grams wouldu be enough.

Normally my training is weights 3 days on, one day off, performing usually 5 exercises per session, 3-4 sets per exercise. Then I do about 20-25 minutes of walking afterwards and otherwise am mostly sedentary for the rest of the day.

When the time comes to add more calories though, i can defintely add more from fat.

I was wondering on the protein issue, I posted before (I was eating even more protein back then, less fat and more carbs) and it was raised I might start burning muscle for fuel since my protein was so high.

At which point would this be a risk? (say what % of energy coming from protein) - or would this only matter if I was in a deficit?

Obviously some of the protein I'm eating at this point will be turning to glucose anyway, so maybe that would also help with fatigue not been seen while taking in fewer carbs?
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Old 07-21-2007, 10:35 AM   #4
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I usually stay between 40 and 160
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Old 07-21-2007, 11:51 AM   #5
John Vernon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shannon Clark View Post
What I'm wondering though is how low I could take my carbs, particularly post-workout without starting to see a decline in my workouts?
I've been going low on the carbs throughout the day and then adding some (not all) of them back in for my PWO meal in the form of sweet potatos and other dense carb sources.
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Old 07-21-2007, 10:16 PM   #6
Shannon Clark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Vernon View Post
I've been going low on the carbs throughout the day and then adding some (not all) of them back in for my PWO meal in the form of sweet potatos and other dense carb sources.

What % of carbs is your diet? Would it be okay to get most of my carbs from 'non-traditional' sources (primarily cottage cheese).
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Old 07-22-2007, 01:59 AM   #7
James Hall
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Default Low carbs

Similar to my questions...I've begun to clean up my diet (again) and notice that when I move to low, quality carbs + IF my body goes a bit nuts. I worked out 2x yesterday...strength AM, intervals + trunk work PM, quality protein (per Drs. Eades advice). Went to bed by 9:30, awoke at 3 AM starving. Nothing but good, quality carbs with the meals.
Am I missing something? Not complaining, as the fat is falling off.
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Old 07-23-2007, 03:32 PM   #8
Robb Wolf
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I've been doing most of my carbs post WO for quite some time. Usually in 60-140g...watermelon is the main source of late and I really like it. I never need more than this level and frequently I am below this level. That seems to fall right into Zone/Protein Power life-plan recommendations and I feel good on this.
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Old 07-23-2007, 09:22 PM   #9
Joyce Behrendt
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You guys are way more expert than I am, but just thought I'd mention the adaption period when going lower in carbs.

Dr. Stephen Phinney studied a ketogenic diet and performance. Here is one article about it by Dr. Jonny Bowden:

http://www.ppcchicago.com/articles/lowcarb.php

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Phinney’s studies were pretty involved, but here’s the Cliff’s Notes version: After a period of adaptation (which took from one to two weeks), exercise performance was just fine, thank you. The only thing that was slightly depressed was sprint capability. Phinney did one study on untrained subjects and another on highly trained athletes. In both cases, there was no loss of VO2 max despite the virtual absence of dietary carbs for 4-6 weeks.

Here’s the bottom line, according to Phinney (and interpreted by me). Number one: If you’re looking at how an athlete performs in the first few days after going on a low carb routine, forget it. They’ll suck. There’s a period of adoption of at least one and maybe two weeks before performance gets back up to previous levels. (Many of the studies dissing low carb diets just didn’t go long enough to see that happen).

Number two: Phinney optimized mineral intake. In a lot of the “low carb” diets studied, folks just didn’t take in enough potassium (and sodium.) Phinney made sure that they did. It makes a huge difference in the cardiovascular reserve and in the preservation of lean body mass.

Finally, number three, all “low carb” diets are not created equal. Phinney found that the protein dose was critical. Effective preservation of lean body mass and physical performance happened when protein was in the range of 1.2 to 1.7 grams per kilogram of body weight (pay attention- it’s 1.2- 1.7 kilograms of body weight, not per pound!) The best results came when there was plenty of dietary fat. The headache and fatigue sometimes felt by people who take on a “low carb high protein diet” frequently happens when people are eating way too much protein and not enough fat.
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:08 PM   #10
Shannon Clark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joyce Behrendt View Post
You guys are way more expert than I am, but just thought I'd mention the adaption period when going lower in carbs.

Dr. Stephen Phinney studied a ketogenic diet and performance. Here is one article about it by Dr. Jonny Bowden:

http://www.ppcchicago.com/articles/lowcarb.php
Thanks for posting all that, it's definitely an interesting read.

So now I'm wondering, you go through the 2 week period of low carbs, feeling not so great and then adapt and performance improves again.

This is assuming you are in ketosis? What would happen if you had low carbs but not under 100, say 150 grams or so. (in order to get to ketosis you need under 100 correct)?

Would you then be stuck waving in the zone of not performing well at all, basically like you are in a long term adaptation period?
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