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Old 08-30-2007, 06:05 PM   #1
R. Alan Hester
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Default Strength Standards MMA?

Do they exist? Is it too broad of a group to say?

Do you think there is a requisite base to allow power production measured against a point of diminishing returns?

Ross Enamait quoted a study that stated, “Excessive maximum strength training can impair speed-strength and technical skill in boxers.”

So what would be excessive?

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Old 08-31-2007, 07:40 AM   #2
Robb Wolf
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This would be a great article topic. I think someone over at T-nation cooked something up on this topic a few years ago and the strength standards were pretty high IMO.

This will vary depending upon the size of the athlete but if you can get a 2xBW squat, 2.5 BW DL, BW standing press and or 1.5-1.75BW bench you will have about all the foundational strength you will need to crush. All that without compromising skill training and sport specific power development.

Keep in mind that once a strength base is established (off season) it can be maintained with a relatively small maintenance volume (in season).

Ross is just a fucking stud coach...that guy really knows his stuff. I futzed around on this topic a lot and he really clarified some things for me. People cite Siff and Super training regarding the inferiority of concurrent training methods for athletes. Ross made the point that this is true for elite strength athletes but it is sufficient for elite strength levels for OTHER athletes...such as fighters, runners etc.

Simple distinction but it eluded me for a very long time. I think that was due in part to a desire to produce an athlete with a top tier PL/OL strength level with crushing levels of metabolic conditioning. VERY tough to do.
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Old 08-31-2007, 05:09 PM   #3
Leo Soubbotine
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Chad Waterbury wrote the Hammer Down series but never finished the series.

Here's a couple links
HD Strength

HD Endurance:

HD Mobility never came out. May be due to their promotion of Magnificient Mobility by Robertson and Cressey.
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Old 08-31-2007, 05:10 PM   #4
Daniel Myers
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I think someone over at T-nation cooked something up on this topic a few years ago and the strength standards were pretty high IMO.
IIRC, that was Chad Waterbury. He advocated a 2xBW bench and 2.5-3xBW on the squat and deadlift. So a 180 pounder would need to bench 360 and squat/DL 450-540. Theoretically possible, but clearly impractical, even without the need to do a bunch of other training.

EDIT: Leo beat me on bringing up Waterbury.
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Old 08-31-2007, 05:45 PM   #5
Daniel Myers
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I'm like the only 25 year-old guy in America who's not currently training for MMA, so I may not know what I'm talking about -- but I'm feeling frisky, so I'll take a shot from the hip.

Being stronger will never hurt you, so the weasel answer is, "Get strong as possible, until getting stronger would mess up other stuff." Basically, train up to the point of diminishing returns, where you can only make progress on strength by limiting something else.

That being said, I'll put an alternate view out so I can get your feedback.

As I see it, here's the real question: Is there a level of strength that is well below that point of diminishing returns, but still sufficient for high level MMA competition? I think the answer is surely yes.

Second question: How much of a real competitive advantage will more strength give you? Of course, you need "enough" strength to be competitive, but I don't get the impression fights ever turn purely on who's stronger. I haven't watched as many fights as some (only what I see on Spike when I'm flipping channels), so correct me on this if I'm wrong.

Since most of us have a weight training background, I think we might be tempted to overstate the value of strength. I propose the following totally uninformed standards:

-- BW bench press for a few reps
-- 2xBW deadlift without killing yourself
-- 10 or so strict pullups
-- Power clean somewhere around BW
-- Proportional strength on other lifts

Any non-retarded lifting program will get you these pretty quickly. After that, you're definitely strong enough to fight most people and win, provided you don't suck at fighting people. Then focus on bringing up your strength gradually during off-season periods, or if you get beat because somebody truly overpowers you.
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Old 08-31-2007, 06:29 PM   #6
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Good responses thus far. I would add that MMA certainly demands a greater level of strength than boxing or any other pure striking discipline. When the only reason to be strong is to increase striking power, the aforementioned point of diminishing returns will appear much sooner because when moving only a fraction of bodyweight, e.g. an arm or leg, very little strength can even be utilized--the power relies more on the speed.

With the grappling element of MMA, however, there are obviously a lot more applications for absolute strength and power. Being able to manhandle your opponent with submaximal effort is a serious advantage, both physically and psychologically.
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Old 09-01-2007, 07:59 AM   #7
Sam Cannons
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Look at Matt Hughes. Strong dude, very dominant.
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Old 09-01-2007, 04:08 PM   #8
Chuck Kechter
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I have been training a small group of amateur MMA fighters for a couple of years, and am no guru, so please take this with a grain of salt...

But it's not how much you can lift. It's how much time and resources does it take away from skill/conditioning training; how does it effect recovery, metabolism, et cetera...

If you blast away at your "specs," (listed above) can you move the next day, or are you going to shear in half when your partner has you in a gogoplata?

On another note Chad Waterbury doesn't know how to train fighters... I was a part of those threads. I had a couple of conversations with Adam Singer (during and after the threads mentioned) about how rediculous the intensity and volume CW was presenting. He would grind his fighters to dust.
Very Respectfully,
Chuck Kechter

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Old 09-02-2007, 02:31 PM   #9
R. Alan Hester
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The latest Crossfit Journal addressd this issue. If I am reading it correctly, strength is VERY important, but Rippetoe still failed to give numbers. I like Robb's percentages, especially since they speak to the weight-class in which one participates.

Thanks for all the replies. I look forward to more.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:38 PM   #10
Jason Lopez-Ota
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Strength is important, but not everything. A world champion doesn't win by outlifting his opponents. Use strength to supplement your training, it shouldn't be the main focus.
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