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Old 03-03-2008, 11:46 AM   #1
Ari Kestler
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Default Eades post on IF....ruh roh....

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/i...ng-rad-or-fad/

w/f/s

Thoughts?
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Old 03-03-2008, 12:41 PM   #2
Mike ODonnell
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The intermittently fasted group of animals despite consuming the same number of calories as the ad libitum fed group enjoyed all the health and longevity benefits of calorically restricted animals. In essence, they got their cake and ate it, too. They got all the benefits of CR plus some without the CR.

Intermittent fasting (IF) reduced oxidative stress, made the animals more resistant to acute stress in general, reduced blood pressure, reduced blood sugar, improved insulin sensitivity, reduced the incidence of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease, and improved cognitive ability. But IF did even more. Animals that were intermittently fasted greatly increased the amount of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF) relative to CR animals. CR animals don’t produce much more BDNF than do ad libitum fed animals.
IF is NOT the same as CR. IF improves markers for health and disease prevention....ok sounds good so far.

If this is what you are referring to:
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IF fasting, by significantly decreasing thermogenesis, decreases kcal out because our thermogenesis is what burns a whole lot of our calories. If the kcal in are decreased by the IF and the kcal out are decreased by the diminished thermogenesis brought about by the IF, it’s no wonder the IF doesn’t result in a lot of weight loss for most people.

The one question that remains unanswered is whether or not the intermittent fast followed in a low-carbohydrate way will lead to these same problems. To me, that point is kind of moot. Why? Because I looked at the IF as a strategy that allowed me to eat a lot of high carb foods that I would normally avoid and not pay the health consequences for it. If I’m going to limit myself to low-carb foods, why go on the IF? I can get the same results just following a regular, whole-food, low-carb diet without having to eat only every other day.

It’s looking like the intermittent fast is another of those ideas in science that look good in animal studies them not so good in human studies, proving once again that rats and mice aren’t simply furry little humans. And it appears - for humans, at least - that the intermittent fast is indeed beginning to look like the reality of a late-night gimmicky infomercial: long on promises, short on delivery. I suspect that it is also a cautionary tale about the applicability of caloric restriction studies to humans as well.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news that the IF didn’t live up to its early billing, but that’s the way science sometimes works.
IF on crappy foods = crappy results. Yeah no shocker there. Does eating healthy foods all day with no IF give weight loss? Sure. Quality of food whether IF or whole day is going to be the #1 factor. IF reduces metabolism? Sure it can, but weight loss is cal in/cal out....so I eat less on IF than I would all day long with the same foods...I can still lose weight.

I think he is talking about mainstream people who think they can IFOC (IF on Crap) and look like a supermodel. Aint gonna happen. Food quality is still important. But long term benefits of IF far outweigh anything eating 6x a day can promote.

I actually did a post today on my blog about why I IF.....it's a choice and I know how to manipulate my foods to get results. So if I can (and many others) make the right food choices, IF, lose fat, gain muscle, lower metabolism (is that a bad thing if you are still losing fat and gaining muscle?), consume less calories (leading to possible life extension as seen in all the CR studies...less you eat...longer you can live) and still have high performance levels....how does it not work? That and there is more than one way to IF....every 3rd day, daily, 1x a week, 16hours, 24 hours, and on and on....lots of possibilities to get results for many different people.
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:02 PM   #3
Ari Kestler
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Right. The article was all butter until about the last 1/4 of the page. I assumed he was referring to IFOC; but later on he mentions how even on his diet, he prefers his version to IFing... I'm not bashing IFing by any means, it has certainly improved my quality of life...just thought it was an interesting piece...
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:10 PM   #4
Mike ODonnell
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I just noticed it probably has something to do with his interview here as well:
http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog/

I am sure he just means that it is not the "magic pill" for weight loss compared to a diet of low carb/higher protein. Not going to argue there. But hard to argue the benefits of IF for the long term. In the end....if IF works for you, stick with it.....if it doesn't then modify or stop doing it. That and IFOC (I need to trademark that) never will do any good.
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Old 03-03-2008, 01:52 PM   #5
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"Sorry to be the bearer of bad news that the IF didnít live up to its early billing, but thatís the way science sometimes works."

His science doesn't seem particularly rigorous. I read a lot of inferences.

Also, he talks about most people taking in less calories because they are IF'ing. That takes out the binge aspect that was so Paleolithic in his estimation. What about the people who are taking in the same amount of calories. What about the people who did lose quite a bit of weight?

It seems quite a few people here are doing a modified IF with an eating window each day. I'd be interested to see what his experience with that would look like.
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Old 03-03-2008, 02:24 PM   #6
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The subjects in these studies who consumed only one meal per day had reduced thermogenesis even while consuming the same number of calories that they did when eating three times per day.
Here's the problem with his approach imo. I don't think eating 1x a day of large amount of calories is ever a good idea. Like John said, would be interested how his experience might of been with a modified eating window daily, or even just a fast 1-2x a week. Plus I do not know his or his patient's activity level as people who workout more, obviously burn more calories than those sitting around.

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that the intermittent fast is indeed beginning to look like the reality of a late-night gimmicky infomercial: long on promises, short on delivery.
That line is troubling that IF has to be only one way in his book. What about starting with each person, defining their state of health, goals, activity level and adjusting an IF program around those individual needs. What about combining a low carb/higher protein meal plan with a fast 1x a week to improve health markers? (IF meets protein power?) Can't there be more than just one way to IF?
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:33 PM   #7
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Can't say I agree with Eades on this one. In my experience with IF (1-2 days per week for now) I've come to the conclusion it's only as good as the quality of food. At first I found myself turning to unfavorable foods just to hit what I thought were baseline calories, which was a total mistake. There was no fat gain or anything but energy levels were nil. Since I've stuck to high quality foods, which happen to be a lot less calories than I was getting during my days of a magic number, I've had all the energy I need. Oddly enough, I fast on the weekends.... when most tend to back off a bit lol.

MOD your blog is outstanding and I've recommended it to many in the past week.
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Old 03-03-2008, 07:49 PM   #8
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Thanks Scott, just keeping it real (as the kids say) on IF as it does work for so many people and hopefully more and more success stories will get out there. I know Eades didn't like his own approach to IF, but there is more than one way to IF as we know. But all the feedback (even negative) is what makes finding the right ways to IF easier.

I look forward to getting more into mass gain on IF as well as test a few methods myself with carb cycling once my shoulder heals up. (hell may even try a long fast to see if the healing process accelerates....Hmmmm)
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:43 AM   #9
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I wouldn't recommend the eating once for all your calories IF either.

Personally I like the variation I did:

Fast 15-18 hours 5x a week and then don't worry about it on the weekends while still eating well. I found better success with that then with trying to fast 7 days a week. When staying on 7 days a week of 15-18 hour fasting I did find some metabolism slowdown. When I added back in the 2-3 das of not fasting 1-18 that helped to even things out.
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Old 03-04-2008, 11:15 AM   #10
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I think you are seeing the backlash from all that on Eades' blog as he posted about it and left it open for comments.

Allen - can you do me a favor and post that personal story on IF over at http://projectfit.org/iflifeblog/if-success-stories/ . That's great feedback that people should know about!
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