Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Training > Fitness, Strength & CrossFit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-04-2007, 10:06 PM   #1
Yael Grauer
Senior Member
 
Yael Grauer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 1,590
Default running shaped evolution?

http://www.utah.edu/unews/releases/0...runevolve.html
__________________
http://yaelwrites.com
Yael Grauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2007, 04:40 AM   #2
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Weak statements. "An Ape has no butt"? "A bigger heel bone"?

So none of those contribute to gate/waking and only running? Half my muscle is in my butt from 30+ years of ice hockey...so was hockey a natural evolution (well maybe in Canada)

I love when people use the word "running"....I think of 100meters, 400meters, somewhere under a mile and at a very fast pace. Everyone else think jogging slower than I can walk for 12 miles. 2 different exercises if you ask me.

Running is great and has benefits of increased muscle and endurance ability, jogging is not my thing. I'll run 3-5miles if only it is on a trail and I am usually going fast and slowing down and speeding up again....I'm never going at one pace anyways.

Running is a sport for the body. Jogging is a sport for Nike and everyone else that makes money off fancy shoes, clothing and Marathons (40,000 x the entrance fee??, can you say $$$$). Jogging will always be promoted, because it's an industry.
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2007, 05:26 AM   #3
Steve Shafley
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,285
Default

Let's not even mention the complete inappropriateness of running for many (most? all?) as prescribed by modern media as their main source of exercise.
Steve Shafley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2007, 10:51 AM   #4
Dave Van Skike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,738
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
Weak statements. "An Ape has no butt"? "A bigger heel bone"?

So none of those contribute to gate/waking and only running? Half my muscle is in my butt from 30+ years of ice hockey...so was hockey a natural evolution (well maybe in Canada)

I love when people use the word "running"....I think of 100meters, 400meters, somewhere under a mile and at a very fast pace. Everyone else think jogging slower than I can walk for 12 miles. 2 different exercises if you ask me.

Running is great and has benefits of increased muscle and endurance ability, jogging is not my thing. I'll run 3-5miles if only it is on a trail and I am usually going fast and slowing down and speeding up again....I'm never going at one pace anyways.

Running is a sport for the body. Jogging is a sport for Nike and everyone else that makes money off fancy shoes, clothing and Marathons (40,000 x the entrance fee??, can you say $$$$). Jogging will always be promoted, because it's an industry.
If you accept the "out of Africa" evolutionary model, then think the context in which these bipeds evoelved. They are small, very slow scavenger/predators. The theory goes that their main evolutionary advantage over the competition is that they can be out operating in the noon day heat (while most other predators and prey are asleep). By being able to sweat effectively and cool the body, these small predators can literlaly jog their prey to death. "persistence hunting". And yes, we are talking about jogging at varying rates of speed, not sprinting a 400 or a 1000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_hunting


This theory has been around a while and as an operational model there are many popoutions that have praticed or continue to practice this method of hunting.

From a pure logic standpoint, think of a slow hairless hominid in his savanna context. Other than the big brain, what has he got? Comparatively, his sprint is pathetic, his strength is worse. So lookign to his advantages, swqeating and endurance or the big ones.

I'm not saying it's the end all theory but it beats the hell out of the idea that humans are naturally adapted to sprinting and short very quick bursts of strenght ala the current mythology of armchair anthropologists. And anyone who thinks hunting is a "strength" or sprint sport is doing it wrong.
Dave Van Skike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2007, 12:18 PM   #5
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

We could argue all day about "What is running?"

Is it 400meters? 1 mile? 3miles? 5 miles? 24.6 miles?

I would say our bodies are greatly designed for all aspects, sprinting and running distances whatever it may be. My beef is how most people (thanks to the media) assume running is a marathon. There are probably some good marathon runners who cross train and sprint/run much shorter distances. To me I would say there are few and far between. (and probably the only healthy long distance runners out there with muscle and lean body fat %)

Of course there is the exception to every rule, but I just think we have gone to far with glorifying jogging.
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2007, 12:39 PM   #6
Steve Liberati
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post

I love when people use the word "running"....I think of 100meters, 400meters, somewhere under a mile and at a very fast pace. Everyone else think jogging slower than I can walk for 12 miles. 2 different exercises if you ask me.

Running is great and has benefits of increased muscle and endurance ability, jogging is not my thing. I'll run 3-5miles if only it is on a trail and I am usually going fast and slowing down and speeding up again....I'm never going at one pace anyways.

Running is a sport for the body. Jogging is a sport for Nike and everyone else that makes money off fancy shoes, clothing and Marathons (40,000 x the entrance fee??, can you say $$$$). Jogging will always be promoted, because it's an industry.
So true Mike. On target as usual.

Personally I have a hard time imagining hominids or aboriginal hunters "jogging" around for hours at a time on an empty tank hunting down their prey or searching the land for food. Doesn't make much sense. I'm sure they used their energy output more wisely.

Let's not underestimate their skills either (stupid but funny Geico commercial comes to mind..."so smart a caveman can do it"). Sure they were nowhere near as smart as humans are today (especially the highly intellectual guys like Neal W., Robb, Mike and many others here) but they were highly highly skilled for their environment. This enabled man to only survive but successfully evolve and adapt to an ever changing climate!

As Daniel Quinn wrote, "If you were to follow an aboriginal hunter through the forest, he'd see things that were literally invisible to you, He'd see and recognize marks in the dirt that you'd have to concentrate to see at all. He'd notice disturbances in the grass that would be imperceptible to you."

So I think a good point can be made that aboriginals and prehistoric man knew exactly what they were doing (very resourceful) when it came to surviving in the wild and hunting down their dinner.....and the mere thought of running (sorry jogging) around for any long length of a time seems out of whack. A good analogy is having street smarts. There are plenty of hustlers out there on the street who can't even spell their own name or count up to ten, but gets by with pure common sense and knowing the streets.

Same thing for aboriginals and most animals. They're "savanna smarts" enable them to run (sprint) down their prey only when the time is right. There's no hunting manual either. Rather something they developed and learned over millions of years.

They were very skilled. Not smart, but skilled.
Steve Liberati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-05-2007, 01:51 PM   #7
Dave Van Skike
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: PNW
Posts: 1,738
Default

"They were very skilled. Not smart, but skilled"

We could all have quite a time defining our terms here. What is smart? What is fit? what is jogging?

That would be a time suck of epic proportions. That said. All animals that successfully hunt are "smart" or at least "fit" for the task at hand in that they do it over and over again for millions of years.

"They're "savanna smarts" enable them to run (sprint) down their prey only when the time is right. "

My point is this, it is folly to assume that any where along the continuum of fuzzy little bipeds to modern human, our ancestors ran down prey with speed or won a battles of strength in some epic quest for food. Didn't happen. Ever hunted? Ever tried to chase down something slow like a goat?

"So I think a good point can be made that aboriginals and prehistoric man knew exactly what they were doing (very resourceful) when it came to surviving in the wild and hunting down their dinner.....and the mere thought of running (sorry jogging) around for any long length of a time seems out of whack."


If the skill you have is being able to slowly grind your prey down by startling, chasing and then startling then chasing again, why not use that tool? What could be a better use of time? No one postulated that this is time consuming or difficult. In an evolutionary sense, if it is difficult or high risk, it gets weeded out pretty quick.

"Personally I have a hard time imagining hominids or aboriginal hunters "jogging" around for hours at a time on an empty tank hunting down their prey or searching the land for food. Doesn't make much sense. I'm sure they used their energy output more wisely."

There are people that still hunt that way in a bunch of climates, not just equatorial areas. The concept that this takes a lot of time or they spend all day doing it is a fallacy. Hunter gather societies spend very little actual time hunting or gathering. I seem to remember from an anthro program that modern bushman spend like 10 hours a week devoted to getting food. They nap and screw off the rest of the time.

Back on point.....

I don't think it's at dispute that humans are very well adapted for pretty long steady distance movement (call it running, walking, jogging, skipping migrating) at least compared to all other primates, all other animals on the savanna etc. What this means is still not clear.

Persistance hunting is one idea. Significant patterns of adaptation can't be dismissed though. Whether we like the "idea" of "man the distance runner" is not really important.

Last edited by Dave Van Skike : 01-05-2007 at 01:59 PM. Reason: spelling
Dave Van Skike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2007, 06:37 AM   #8
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

I just got this from Chek and thought it was relevant and interesting:

"Our next logical question should be, did our ancestors regularly participate in cardiovascular exercise? Not likely. First of all, it would not be energy efficient to run around gathering berries, firewood and nuts in your target zone. Nor would it have been wise to run through the bush trying to get a workout while hunting, since any animal would hear you coming from hundreds of yards away and be long gone by the time you got there. If there was a cardiovascular stressor in our native environment, it was most likely when we had to send a messenger to a neighboring village or during times of battle, when you were either running or fighting for your life."

"Quite simply, there’s not much money in the manufacture and sales of dumbbells, weight plates and Olympic bars, but there are huge amounts of money to be made if you can convince the masses that aerobic exercise is necessary for disease prevention. After all, have you priced a treadmill, step mill, spin bike, rowing machine, elliptical machine or any such equipment lately? They cost anywhere from several hundred, to several thousand dollars per unit! They often have hundreds of moving parts, which wear out, break and need to be replaced. How many Olympic bars or dumbbells have you replaced lately? It is not at all unusual for a gym or rehab clinic to spend $75,000-$100,000 on cardio equipment alone, and, they will need to be replaced every few years; the same facilities often don’t spend more than $15,000-$20,000 on free weight training equipment and it can last the life of the gym. Yes, I know they spend large sums of money on fixed axis resistance training machines, but that is but another sign of industry influence and professional passivity!

When you get several large equipment manufacturers with multi-million dollar investments in the production of aerobic exercise equipment, you can rest assured there will be a comparatively large commitment to creating an aerobic exercise consciousness. The proof is all around you, in your exercise and bodybuilding magazines, trade journals, on TV infomercials, in your training manuals from most educational institutions. Who do you think sponsors the educational institutions and pays for the supportive research? "

The whole article is at http://www.chekinstitute.com/articles.cfm?select=71
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2007, 07:09 AM   #9
Steve Liberati
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 459
Default

The headquarters of Leisure Fitness, a HUGE seller of fitness equipment (treadmills, stairmasters, etc) is located around the block walking distance to my house. Whenever I pass by their HUGE warehouse or see one of their many trucks on the road, it just completely baffles me how BIG they are and how big the "cardio" market they serve. Its just amazing how many ppl out there believe cardio (i.e doing the ellipitcal for 45 mins), is the answer to their weight and health problems. Sadly, the mindset is you can eat like shit and party like a rock star....but get your 45 mins of cardio in and you're good.

.....only if it was that easy.
Steve Liberati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2007, 10:21 AM   #10
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

"Abs are made in the Kitchen"....I like telling people that. It sticks with them.

Between the masses of Cardio and Ab machines.....we should be the most fit country on the face of the planet!
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:48 AM.

Powered by vBulletin Version 3.6.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator