Home   |   Contact   |   Help

Get Our Newsletter
Sign up for our free newsletter to get training tips and stay up to date on Catalyst Athletics, and get a FREE issue of the Performance Menu journal.

Go Back   Catalyst Athletics Forums > Nutrition > General Nutrition

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-25-2007, 03:11 PM   #1
Jeremy Jones
Senior Member
 
Jeremy Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 181
Default Starting the Zone off right

I have had this idea brewing in my head to help people get started on a macro nutrient balanced diet easier (with a higher success rate).

I know that a lot of people had great success, albeit temporarily, using the Atkins diet. Most of what I have heard is that most people could do it for a few weeks to a few months before they would cave in and fall off the wagon.

I have observed for many people trying the Zone, the way of balancing carbs, prot, and fat is complicated and has a lot of room for error. People have a hard time keeping up the routine of weighing and measuring, and the flexibility of the carb types allows people to go 'off the reservation'.

Combine this with the experiences of the Velocity Diet, and the 'surrendering' of choice that Dan John found so effective.


Maybe a good way to start some people down the road to a healthy diet is to move them through stages.

Start them on something similar to the Atkins diet. . . very few to no carbs, lean protein, and healthy fats. They will drop a lot of water weight, but most importantly, they will go 'cold turkey' on the carbohydrates. We all know how hard it can be to break the body's addiction to carbs, especially when it keeps getting doses on a regular basis. Basically we are going to shock the system into a 'fat burning' machine like it is supposed to be. They are not going to do any math to figure out their meals, they are not going to have a lot of options, they are going to have to eat protein, take vitamins, and drink water. On a side note, the water weight lost will keep them motivated.

After a period of time (I haven't figured it out yet), they could start bringing in the healthy carbs. During the first phase, they could learn about healthy carbohydrates and how much of each category belongs in a meal. The second phase would be to let them eat healthy carbohydrates. After a month or so of no carbs, even healthy ones would seem wonderful.

Phase 3 would be time to introduce Intermittent Fasting (only if everything else is going right).


What are you're thoughts?
__________________
-Jeremy Jones
www.diablocrossfit.com
Jeremy Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2007, 06:12 PM   #2
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Jeremy I do exactly that for clients.....2 weeks nothing but veggies, healthy fats and meat...let them get rid of sugar and grains from their diet....then allow them to reintroduce the carbs in a zone way. Zone is a good way for beginners to learn portion control. More advanced people may be able to come up with their own style like an athletes zone or paleo...but in the beginning I want them to understand and put the effort in to learning what are good calories and what are not. Just have to keep the calories at where they need to be for continued weight loss.

In my experience I also allow one cheat meal a week....so people dont feel deprived and fall off the band wagon.

More advanced athletes I would get more complicated programs to involve more PWO carbs timing for recovery.

Fasting is something I introduce people to...but like anything, they need to accept that on their own terms and will try it when they are ready....otherwise I look like the crazy guy making them fast.
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2007, 08:55 PM   #3
Billy_Brummel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 100
Default

It makes sense to me. I think people are naturally inclined to do things (especially diet) in phases. It makes things seem not so "extreme" and more manageable for them. A lot of people say "measuring my food for blocks is too much of a pain" (myself included), but after a few weeks of just meat and veggies, they'll be cheering when they get out the measuring cups for the good carbs.
Billy_Brummel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 03:49 PM   #4
Jeremy Jones
Senior Member
 
Jeremy Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 181
Default

I was thinking more along the lines of 'no carbs' for the first phase.


The idea is to not allow any 'fudging', to force the body to burn fat, and to break the carb addiction.

I used to think cheat meals were good, but now I lean more toward avoiding them for beginners (after the first couple weeks). I find that even one 'cheat' can make a beginner remember what they are missing and give up completely.
__________________
-Jeremy Jones
www.diablocrossfit.com
Jeremy Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 04:55 PM   #5
Billy_Brummel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 100
Default

...I knew there was a reason I always did poorly on those standardized tests!! Bad reading comprehension.

I still like your idea.
Billy_Brummel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 06:07 PM   #6
Steve Liberati
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ
Posts: 459
Default bit long but hopefully worth it....

I don't doubt for a second that the suggestions mentioned will make the transition much easier for most people to follow. In fact, I'm sure we can think of more of these tactics to help our clients ease off the carbs they so desperately crave and supposedly just cannot live without.

But I think the problem still comes down to consistency and duration. Will the client continue to follow the program beyond the obtained goal? What happens when summer time comes around and little time is made for cooking healthy meals and following the diet? Will s/he stick to Zone portions or Paleo selections when friends are sharing a pie of pizza and/or enjoying a hamburger with fries (enjoying the spices of life)? You might say, "well thats where will power comes into play." And I would agree.

But more important than any program or tactic for making the transition easier and ensuring a high long-term success rate is the mind-set factor.

Before I go further, please forgive me if I sound like Tony Robbins or Zig Zagler. This is just something I've been thinking and experimenting with for some time now...

How to help people eat better and do it consistently over the long haul...I think the best advice on this topic can be found in one of the Rich Dad's books. I think it was the Cashflow Quadrant if not mistaken.

Anyway, it talks about the BE-DO-HAVE principle. If you haven't read the book it goes like this:

"Goals are the 'have' part of the three works. Goals such as to have a nice body, or to have great health, or to have a million dollars (insert whatever you like). Once most people figure out what they want to have, their goal, they begin listing what they have 'to do.' That is why most people have "To Do" lists. They set their goal and then begin doing.

What most people do when they want a perfect body is go on a diet, and then go to the gym. This lasts for a few weeks and then most are back to the old diet of French fries and pizza, and instead of going to the gym, they watch baseball on TV. This is an example of 'doing' instead of 'being.'

"Its not the diet that counts; it's who you have to be to follow the diet that counts. Yet, every year millions of people look for the perfect diet to follow in order to become thin. They focus on what they have to do, rather than who they have to be. A diet will not help if your thoughts do not change."

So if you want to have a nice body and have a great health the doing is the easy part. Its the being thats the difficult part. As trainers/coaches its our job to help change the mind-set of our clients so following a healthy lifestyle is not so much short-term gain as it is a life-time committment.

I think one way we can do this (besides discussing of course) is to give reading assignments each week. May sound a little far fetched at first but I really believe it could have a major impact on the client's success and retention rate. For example, first week would be the paleo week. Second week would be a few selected posts from Art D's blog (print it out) third week assign "Lights Out" and so on.

I know at least for me....gaining an evolutionary outlook has completely changed (for the better) the way I look at fitness and health. It just makes eating good and working out consistently seem so much more natural and easier than it did before. Before it was more of a chore and just something I had to do.

Now its more satisfying and fun.
Steve Liberati is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2007, 06:29 PM   #7
Mike ODonnell
Senior Member
 
Mike ODonnell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 3,596
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Jones View Post
I was thinking more along the lines of 'no carbs' for the first phase.
You are not going to get much carbs with the just veggies rule (aka no fruit, no potatoes, corn, peas...lucky to get 30g a day)

Quote:
I used to think cheat meals were good, but now I lean more toward avoiding them for beginners (after the first couple weeks). I find that even one 'cheat' can make a beginner remember what they are missing and give up completely.
I disagree and see the exact opposite...I tell people eat right all week and reward yourself (except in the first 2 weeks, no cheat meals). People fall off diets all the time because they menatlly feel deprived. Instead of deprivation, you must create a sense of permanent lifestyle change. Some may be hard core enough to go cold turkey...but most arent. Their choices for cheat meals will reinforce good eating because after they get a good clean metabolism, throwing desert and other sugar items will crush them and make them feel like absolute crap....and the next time they think about that chocolate cake...guess what they will remember. I have had great success and I think cheat meals are a huge part of the mental game....plus they are only allowed a cheat meal if their eating is on track the rest of the time...they have to earn it.

Like Steve said above...it is really about educating people on why they need to eat and what...if they understand how their body works and what makes it run good....and what makes it run bad....then they will look at food differently. Most people Live to Eat....when they need to Eat to Live. I like mental games like telling them "Everytime you put sugar in your mouth you are saying that you do not want to burn fat for the next 3-4 hours"....things like that stick with people.
Mike ODonnell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2007, 04:05 PM   #8
Allison Barns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 135
Default

Steve! Your long post was totally worth reading for me! What's the book you are refering to? I think I need it! I agree with the "BE-HAVE-DO principle" as you described. Shifting my thinking from "I want to be an athlete" or, more honestly, "I want to have an athelete's body" to "I am an athlete" has helped me tremendously. (I still don't believe myself all the time, but I'm working on me.

Thanks for your long post!
Allison Barns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2007, 04:16 PM   #9
Allison Barns
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Seattle
Posts: 135
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike ODonnell View Post
"Everytime you put sugar in your mouth you are saying that you do not want to burn fat for the next 3-4 hours"....things like that stick with people.
Mike - I LIKE that. And I will think of you next time I am tempted with sugar!

I agree that testing yourself with cheat food is a good way to remind yourself why you are eating in a different way. It worked for me when my gluten/dairy intolerance was found. I'd eat clean for several weeks and then get tempted ("oh, one bite of cake won't hurt").... but it DID hurt and the nasty gremlin using my gut for a punching bag was a strong reminder that the moment in the mouth was NOT worth it. Now the temptation is no longer there - I can look at it and the memory reminds me it's just not a good idea.
Allison Barns is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2007, 07:40 PM   #10
Robb Wolf
Senior Member
 
Robb Wolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,444
Default

We have wrangled with this a bunch. I think the meat and veggies thing is sooo damn easy and effective. It just turns things around immediately...no arguing over toast, juice, beans etc. Even an athlete who is cranking along with their training can benefit from depleting their liver and muscular glycogen for perhaps the first time in their lives. Make them more efficient at burning fat and then introduce carbs as necessary to support activity.

This was an ongoing source of frustration for me when I was part of crossfit as the party line was "All you need is Zone"...except for all the celiacs and the fact that refined carbs in ANY amount derails many, many people. An of course it would be IMPOSSIBLE to eat 40/30/30 with "meat and veggies, nuts and seeds, some fruit, little starch and not sugar..." bullocks.

Everyone from Sears to Poliquin comment that some folks are carb tolerant and some are not. I think the folks who do well on the Zone are relatively carb tolerant. I remember the first crossfit certification Nicole Carrol went to...she was still vegetarian and eating a relatively low protein diet but had capped delts and her abs were up. She is leaner and more muscular now with the Zone and seems to do great on the Zone but when I eat Zone parameter carbs I start getting carb related hunger pangs...unless everything is veggies but then I need 4hrs per day just to chew my food. I'm fairly disciplined but that is a deal breaker for me. As is the issue of how do I eat soups, stews and cook for 2, 3, or 5 people. I think the Zone is a nice tool in many ways and can be PERFECT for your OCD clients who thrive on knowing exactly what to eat. Other people if you can get them to buy some organic salad greens, steam some asparagus and buy a rotisserie chicken on the way home from work...getting ready to feed the kids and help with homework...that is all they can manage and likely all they NEED.

Steve-
You bring up some interesting points about the psychology, about how people need to frame things to keep priorities straight. I suspect there are 4-8 archetypes along the lines of the Meyers-Briggs personality type (http://www.humanmetrics.com/cgi-win/JTypes2.asp)

Just a guess, nothing solid. We are working on a screening method to determine if someone would do well with a stringent "eat this, weigh and measure everything" method versus a "meat, veggies, good fats" approach.

Over time I've realized that I need to be aggressive from day one about nutrition. Much like what Mike mentioned...folks need to earn cheat meals. From day one I need to tell them if they do not comply with the nutrition and lifestyle I wont work with them. Oddly enough it improves compliance AND retention. I think folks actually affect some real change as well. In the past I was very hands off...loads of educational material but I "let them find their own way". that is bullshit...and was a disservice. This may sound nuts but "we" are the only people who are going to give our clients the real deal. They will not get information that promotes health from their doctor, priest, dietitian, politician or TV news anchor-person. Oprah is trying to kill them, they just don't' know it, and neither does Oprah.

For a dedicated person, with a bit of time and a desire to bring their game up the weighing and measuring of the Zone is a nice place to get them going. For a stressed out, single mom who works 45-50 hrs per week, who is trying to get her kid to swimming and piano practice weighing and measuring ala the Zone is a phocking pharse. Getting the same individual to eat some scrambled eggs and a hand full of nuts for breakfast, a can of salmon over salad greens for lunch and a rotisserie chicken and steamed asparagus for dinner is doable.

Sorry if this was a little random...I can REALLY jabber on this topic.
__________________
"Survival will be neither to the strongest of the species, nor to the most intelligent, but to those most adaptable to change."
C. Darwin

Robb's Blog
Robb Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:15 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9 Beta 3
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Subscribe to our Newsletter


Receive emails with training tips, news updates, events info, sale notifications and more.
ASK GREG

Submit your question to be answered by Greg Everett in the Performance Menu or on the website

Submit Your Question
WEIGHTLIFTING TEAM

Catalyst Athletics is a USA Weightlifting team of competitive Olympic-style weightlifters with multiple national team medals.

Read More
Olympic Weightlifting Book
Catalyst Athletics
Contact Us
About
Help
Newsletter
Products & Services
Gym
Store
Seminars
Weightlifting Team
Performance Menu
Magazine Home
Subscriber Login
Issues
Articles
Workouts
About the Program
Workout Archives
Exercise Demos
Text Only
Instructional Content
Exercise Demos
Video Gallery
Free Articles
Free Recipes
Resources
Recommended Books & DVDs
Olympic Weightlifting Guide
Discussion Forum
Weight Conversion Calculator