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Old 03-14-2010, 10:06 AM   #1
Joe Hart
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Default Aerobic conditioning and strength

So I have been reading Joel Jamieson's book...


If you were to train the to things together how would you do it? When I say together I mean the same week. I know these two ideas do not compliment each other. I also understand there is a hormone thing from heavy lifting that lasts 24-48 hours and that as the CNS gets better at recruiting more fibers in a contraction you get stronger and it is not just big muscles. LSD after lifting screws up the hormone thing. So am I understanding this right?

If I read it right. Joel's stance is that if you do your aerobic conditioning and heavy lifting you get stronger and not bigger because the CNS will take care of the strength part (recruitment) and the hormone thing will not be as effective because of conditioning.

So would it beneficial to

1. run in the AM and lift in the PM
2. Lift and then run 24 hrs later
3. Have multiple lifting days together (Lift M, T Rest W, Aerobic TH F SAT)

So a side question to those versed in physiology (sp?) Does the hormone release from heavy lifting just aid in muscle repair and growth (non-sarcoplasmic) and nothing for CNS recovery? When it comes to the CNS the hormones don't do much to aid in its job to make you stronger (sleep and good recovery do that)?

Yeah its long and convoluted. Thats what you get when a non-science person tries to understand science.
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Old 03-14-2010, 10:37 AM   #2
Allen Yeh
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Anecdotally I wasn't having problems with 5/3/1 in the afternoons and PT in the early AM which usually was runs consisting of 4+ miles. I was dropping weight and getting stronger of course my feet were killing me from all the running but other than that!
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Old 03-14-2010, 12:06 PM   #3
Jay Ashman
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I'm going to start separating lifting and conditioning days for a few reasons. Recovery and time.

I expect to have better results across the board since I will be able to hit conditioning workouts harder instead of worrying about doing one after pulling 15 reps with 405# in the deadlift or after doing a higher rep set of squats (I'm doing 5/3/1)

I'm not an athlete (anymore) so this may be the best thing for me, at 35, to maintain my long-term fitness and strength and to maximize my recovery ability.
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:45 PM   #4
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By aerobic conditioning, do you just mean steady state running-type stuff?

If that's what you mean, then it should not interfere with strength gains or even mass gains, as long as you're eating enough. Preferably, cardio a few hours before or after strength training or on a separate day is ideal. You could still do it right after strength training, if that's all the time you have.

This article might be of help:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/tra...ng-part-1.html

As long as intensity is kept low and volume is set at a reasonable amount, steady state running will not interfere with strength gains. It will mostly train your heart and slow twitch fibers and a few other things. It won't interfere with the fast twitch fibers, esp. if you follow Joel's advice of keeping HR in the 120-150 range.

Some of the other things Joel does, like High Intensity Continuous Training (HICT) could potentially have negative effects on strength and muscle mass, just like CrossFit metcons, but steady state runs at 20 min - 1 hr shouldn't if you're eating at maintenance or surplus calories.
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:09 PM   #5
Steve Shafley
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Vladimir Issurin, in his "Block Periodization" says that pairing heavy resistance training with low intensity cardiovascular work afterwards is fine.

Note: NOT neuro-based ME work, but heavy training, as more exemplified by 531 or 5x5...that sort of work.

The other thing he couples that with is flexibility training.

Some shit he recommends against pairing that type of work with:

-anaerobic conditioning
-maximal speed work
-maximally explosive work
-neuro-based max effort work
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:16 AM   #6
James Evans
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Is this ignorant or are we not serving two masters here? That's a lot more fuel you're consuming when you're doing both things.



Joe, as someone who isn't Donald it would be interesting to hear your opinions on the book when you're done reading it.

Donald that's not a dig at you by the way.
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Old 03-15-2010, 11:37 AM   #7
Pat McElhone
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Why do you want to train both? Next, why can't you train both? Finally, what are you concerned about by training both?

You can do anything you want. Look at Triathletes. They are not very good cyclists, runners, or swimmers, but they are good at all 3. The reverse is true too, you can be a great cyclist and an okay runner, think Lance Armstrong running a marathon.
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Old 03-15-2010, 06:54 PM   #8
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Okay. So my intent is not running but CV conditioning. I want to see if what Joel says is true/works. I enjoy trying to get stronger. I would like to do both. I understand that strength gains will be as good doing CV (aerobic) stuff.

Steve- So what you are saying is that the various forms of cleans and snatches would not be profitable venture on CV days or at all in the week. (Checked to see how much those books you talked about cost...ouch!) But doing 5/3/1 and LSD or rowin, biking at the proper HR would be ok?

What I was doing before was some cleans or snatches and then 5/3/1 with assistance exercises.

I will post my thoughts on the book next...
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:21 PM   #9
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So I have read Joel Jameison's book "Ultimate MMA Conditioning"

Overall, I thought it was good. There were some things that I would have liked to seen.

He breaks down the various aspects of conditioning into terms that a non-hard science / non-S&C coach person can understand. Most of the sections I read 3-4 times to make sure that I understood it. There are a few places that he leaves stuff out that he goes over in the blue print section and then it makes sense. He explains how the systems interact and how a good base of aerobic conditioning will help with all of your other conditioning endeavors.

He recommends putting down a general strength and general endurnace blocks during the time that you are not getting ready for a fight. If those two blocks are at the proper level then he recommends working on the other aspects of conditioning. He points out often that S&C should really be secondary to MMA skill and technique training. He likes it better if you can use the MMA drills and skill for the conditioning parts. Two birds with one stone.

He gives you testing recommendations to figure out where you are so you can figure what you really need to work on.

He does not tell you exactly how to set up your program because he figures everyones program will be different and have different needs. Which is good. He is more concise with the 8 weeks of fight prep, which is what should be expected.

So of the things that would be nice...
Some of the regmines explain sets reps time...and that you can do sprints, or lunges or what ever. That works for some, because it obvious. Other regimines there is no exercise recommendation and it is difficult for me (atleast) to think of an exercise that would work well with what I have. Sure I could run on everything but that gets real boring. It would seem that KBs would fit in real well with some of the stuff he suggests, but there is no real comment on KBs. Other than doing lunges or jumping squats (if I remember rightly)

Joel has some machines that he likes alot. Versaclimber spin bikes and endless rope. That is great if you have the $$$. What there needs to be is better examples to take these machines place in certain regimines.

All in all I found the book helpful. I am still re-reading it and doing general endurance and strength blocks.
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Old 03-16-2010, 04:00 AM   #10
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Joe, I understood what you meant.

Donald will be a bit more clued up on this because I know he reads a lot of the 8weeksout stuff but a few things I've noticed:

Joel seems a little ambivalent towards kettlebells. I can't remember the name of the method but he has those intervals where you hammer it for 12 seconds then recover for as long as it takes to get your heart rate back down. It hinges around his view that everyone has different recovery rates and therefore something like Tabata (or indeed any other interval protocol with fixed recovery time) becomes cookie cutter. He favours the spin bike on high resistance. Someone asked if kettlebells would be appropriate (say swings, Russian or American depending on your like see my tedious posts elsewhere ). If I recall he didn't think you would get HR up high enough, quickly enough in the time frame.

I've also seen him asked about C2s and he said he had little to no experience with them. I feel there is a lot you can do with a C2 if you want to tune up your engine. On the other hand Rob Shaul of Mountain Athlete/Military Athlete disagrees and feels they have little carry over for his guys.

So we have a few ideas that cost $$$$. Something that can be overlooked with Ross Enamait is his very firmly set low tech approach to training using equipment that is relatively available. And despite what many say Ross is not all out, balls to the wall every time you train by any means. I really like a lot of what I've seen from Joel and it's good to see aerobic work promoted again. Some of us aren't Rich Franklin though, are we?

Just to clarify on my two masters comments: we can get all funky with the hormonal impact of training but a big element is going to be how the fuel gets used. It's perfectly possible to get stronger and run, it's just not optimal for size gains or massive increases in strength. But that's not what you're looking for so go for it.
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