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Old 03-06-2011, 10:00 AM   #1
Gareth Rees
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Default Actual use of the Power variations??

Hi guys,

I've recently started reading Kono's book 'Weightlifting, Olympic Style', and am thoroughly enjoying hearing about his experiences, insights and reading his views on the lifts. But one section of the book questioned common practice, in his clear disregard for the power lifts (as in power clean and power snatch... not LB-BS, DL and BP), and it really does make sense what he says. For those who haven't read it, I'll briefly summarize...
- Power variations change the actual pull during second pull, namely by shifting the shoulders back too early and also bringing the lower back into play too soon.
- Once a lifter is required to go to full depth, his timing and form is different.
- The PC's only place in weightlifting was required when it was necessary to prepare for the Press, and now that the Press is no longer a competitive lift should be not used any more.

He finishes his debate by asking 'Who cares how high you can pull a light weight?', and then states that power variations have their place in the sport, but only as very light warm ups...

Now, I'll go on to also say that I've also read Everett's book, and I'll bring up his section on the power variations. What I've taken from this book is that Greg clearly believes that the power variations are of value, as it forces additional aggression during the second pull, and are easier on the body during light days, though only if the mechanics are identical. But Kono says that they can't be?

Clearly you can't simply disregard a statement Kono says, as his reputation tells you all you need to know, but this is a big statement to make, and goes against a lot of common practice. If Greg could come in with his own opinion too, I think that would clear up a lot of the confusion.

Anybody/Everybody's thoughts?
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Old 03-06-2011, 11:48 AM   #2
Grissim Connery
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from a conditioning rather than a OL perspective, i've tended to use power cleans rather than full squat cleans when doing explosive-repeat methods. i normally dont' like power cleans that much, but they work better in that context.

i understand your question is completely different, but since this is in the exercise section rather than the weightlifting section, i figured i plug that application. somebody else will probably drop a real answer.
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:05 PM   #3
Gareth Rees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grissim Connery View Post
from a conditioning rather than a OL perspective, i've tended to use power cleans rather than full squat cleans when doing explosive-repeat methods. i normally dont' like power cleans that much, but they work better in that context.

i understand your question is completely different, but since this is in the exercise section rather than the weightlifting section, i figured i plug that application. somebody else will probably drop a real answer.
Any answer is an appreciated one. I'd just like to see people's opinions, and you've stated where you find it more applicable to use a power clean than a squat clean, and it's a good point.

So though it didn't fully answer my direct question, I still thank you for it.
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Old 03-06-2011, 12:32 PM   #4
Arien Malec
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I am not an expert, so treat this as an n=1 learning:

I think much depends on how well the movement patterns for the full lifts are established. If technique for the full lifts is ingrained, the power movements can be a useful adjunct (for example, as the light day in a Bulgarian-style program).

If technique is not ingrained, and particularly when learning the lifts, power movements can be a disaster.
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Old 03-06-2011, 03:56 PM   #5
Damien Thompson
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No expert here in regards to training Oly lifters,... but i think the power versions have merit for certain lifters.

If the lifter is diving to the bottom and having the bar crash on them, it can teach them to catch the bar as high as possible, and then absorb the load if that makes sense. Sometimes i feel lifters miss cause that are right at the bottom of the lift and when they catch the bar, the jolt of the weight shifts them backwards or forwards, where if they could meet the bar, even just an inch higher, they could absorb it into a deeper squat and maybe save the lift.

I also think that with some lifters, and athletes using the lifts for sports S & C who are training very frequently, it allows a competitive atmosphere and allows one to still attack a PB, while sort of having a light day (in comparison to doing the full lifts). So have the lifters go after a PB Power Snatch or Power Clean for their light day, rather than just work comfortably at 80% of their full Snatch & Clean.
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:31 AM   #6
Chris Forbis
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I think I remember Robb talking about having his trainees do power variations on odd implements such as sandbags precisely because it will be less likely to screw with any neural pathways for the Olympic lifts
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Old 03-07-2011, 04:46 AM   #7
Brian DeGennaro
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Greg and Tommy are both right, how about that?

If you are a good lifter, the mechanics should not change between a power or a full lift, and if they do, that is your fault or your coach's fault for not correcting it and screwing you up.

As weights get heavier, you should be receiving them lower and lower in the power position, to the point where a maximal power lift (~80-85% of 1RM) will be caught just above parallel. The only reason the barbell travels that high is because it is light, because you accelerate the hell out of it, and because you stop its downward descent ASAP.

The use of them should be just like Damien and Arien said: teach you to meet the bar, light days, and to develop power and speed (instead of using pulls). The mechanics should not change and if they do then you should go back to the basics and relearn how to lift.
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Old 03-07-2011, 05:42 AM   #8
Spencer Mackay
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Brian touched on this and I think the question goes back to the concept of specificity, how much you want to adhere to that principle and in which ways.

You could view power variations as useless if you're looking to improve the full Olympic movements; if you want to get good at the Snatch and C&J - do the Snatch and C&J. You could view this as 100% specificity, which is fine, however I think there's a place for them in improving power output with a focus on acceleration and speed because the bar is displacing more than in the Olympic movements.
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Old 03-08-2011, 12:40 PM   #9
Pat McElhone
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I really liked Tommy Kono's book. But, those are his opinions on WL. Greg Everett's book expresses his opinions. Read Bill Starr's articles on the lifts and you get his opinions. If you have a coach, you are being coached based on your coaches opinions. If you are self coached, be careful on how much information you are giving yourself.

With all that said, I got the most out of Tommy Kono's book and training plan. I am a masters lifter and I do best on the template he lays out. Many people are doing Bulgarian-like programs and these programs definitely work, but Tommy Kono's program is probably the ideal program for some one with limited time to train (a hour or so, 3 days a week).
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Old 03-10-2011, 03:03 PM   #10
Gareth Rees
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien Thompson View Post
No expert here in regards to training Oly lifters,... but i think the power versions have merit for certain lifters.

If the lifter is diving to the bottom and having the bar crash on them, it can teach them to catch the bar as high as possible, and then absorb the load if that makes sense. Sometimes i feel lifters miss cause that are right at the bottom of the lift and when they catch the bar, the jolt of the weight shifts them backwards or forwards, where if they could meet the bar, even just an inch higher, they could absorb it into a deeper squat and maybe save the lift.

I also think that with some lifters, and athletes using the lifts for sports S & C who are training very frequently, it allows a competitive atmosphere and allows one to still attack a PB, while sort of having a light day (in comparison to doing the full lifts). So have the lifters go after a PB Power Snatch or Power Clean for their light day, rather than just work comfortably at 80% of their full Snatch & Clean.
Thanks Damien, that definately does make sense, and definately is a great use. And with regards to the S&C point, that is an even better point, and one that I'd never thought of, so seriously thanks a lot for bringing it to my attention.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Forbis View Post
I think I remember Robb talking about having his trainees do power variations on odd implements such as sandbags precisely because it will be less likely to screw with any neural pathways for the Olympic lifts
Is there any chance of you expanding on this Chris? Or posting a link? Anything!! That sounds very interesting, and any additional info you'd have on that sounds like it would be a great read and food for thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian DeGennaro View Post
Greg and Tommy are both right, how about that?

If you are a good lifter, the mechanics should not change between a power or a full lift, and if they do, that is your fault or your coach's fault for not correcting it and screwing you up.

As weights get heavier, you should be receiving them lower and lower in the power position, to the point where a maximal power lift (~80-85% of 1RM) will be caught just above parallel. The only reason the barbell travels that high is because it is light, because you accelerate the hell out of it, and because you stop its downward descent ASAP.

The use of them should be just like Damien and Arien said: teach you to meet the bar, light days, and to develop power and speed (instead of using pulls). The mechanics should not change and if they do then you should go back to the basics and relearn how to lift.
That has cleared up a lot, and is along the same lines as what I believed myself with regards to it being fine if technique is correct, I just got my thoughts twisted as Kono said that either way this can not be possible to maintain the same patterns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat McElhone View Post
I really liked Tommy Kono's book. But, those are his opinions on WL. Greg Everett's book expresses his opinions. Read Bill Starr's articles on the lifts and you get his opinions. If you have a coach, you are being coached based on your coaches opinions. If you are self coached, be careful on how much information you are giving yourself.
I am self coached, so I'll take your advice on that

For everybody's information, I found this previous thread on the same sujbect...
http://cathletics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4612

If anybody still has an opinion, please comment.
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