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Old 03-18-2007, 09:33 AM   #1
Greg Davis
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Default Customization and Rates of Oxidation

Okay so I might be obsessing a little bit but I've really been able to be strict with my diet lately so I'm taking the opportunity to nail down what is optimal for me.

With going paleo+low carb (not much fruit or any starchy veggies), and increasing fat intake, I've noticed that I've lost a bit of weight. No big deal for me since my climbing ability (my main athletic concern) hasn't been affected. But it strikes me that the high amounts of fat I'm eating might not be getting utilized by my body (hence the drop in body weight).

Came across this post by Dr. Garrett Smith which made me wonder about how much fat I should be eating:

"The fact that I'm male, Type O (for whatever that part is worth), and a fast oxidator, would seem to say that my system would prefer a bit more animal protein and fat. So, that's exactly what I do.

What this diet has opened my eyes to is the very distinct possibility that my wife's optimal version of this diet is going to be very different than mine--she is a Type A (haven't done her metabolic type yet, although I'm positive she's a slow oxidator), probably needing a whole lot less fat, salt, and animal protein than myself."

I happen to be Type A but have never thought before about what kind of "oxidizer" I am.

Then there is Art De Vany's comments on the subject:
"A number of health authors make dubious claims about the role of blood types; some advance the metabolic typing theory to claim that certain "types" are better adapted to hunter-gatherer or agricultural diets. It is mostly nonsense, with some slight evidence that suggests the theory to non-skeptical thinkers."

I'm curious to know if any other paleo/high fat/IF'ers out there have considered their blood type or thought about how their body handles fat (relative to others). I'm relatively young and healthy and handle most food well so its hard for me to just go on "what works" as far as what is optimal.
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Old 03-18-2007, 07:37 PM   #2
Yael Grauer
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hey Greg, I'm a non-believer in the blood type diet, but I did pay forty bucks to take the online test at metabolictyping.com, where I learned that I'm a really fast oxidizer. I just wanted to point out that the blood type diets (which I'm convinced are bunk) are different than metabolic typing.
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Old 03-19-2007, 06:35 AM   #3
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Mercola tried the blood type diet....and gave himself diabetes thinking he was a slow oxidizer...
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Old 03-19-2007, 07:13 PM   #4
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Oy-Vey...I really wish there were something to the Blood type diet. Everyone who kicks ass on it is, not surprisingly an "O"...which is a paleo diet. I'm an A. I have a horrific time with grains, specifically anything with gluten, and legumes which happens to be the foundation of the A diet!

Looking at the metabolic typing, the qualitative differences between one diet, like fast oxidizer VS slow oxidizer...there is no damn difference! They include crap like wheat toast and juice...WTF!? i may be wrong but IMO it's complete crap. I've heard Poliquin quip about it once or twice but his main message is "paleo" and "avoid gluten and grains". Sounds good to me.

A really condensed approach to nutrition:Meat, Leaves Berries (Borrowed with permission from Dan John inc.). Eat what's in season. Berries post workout if you need extra carbs. Skip meals occasionally. Take a pro-biotic.

Why are you loosing weight? it's damn near impossible to maintain "extra" weight on a low carb, high fat diet...there are no "utilization" issues...your body just finds a nice set-point and that's it.

So I have a pretty potent bias towards paleo eating. I think it's the healthiest thing going hands down and for most things performance oriented it is likely the best but there are many circumstances like post workout nutrition to enhance performance/recovery and getting heeeeyuge in which "paleo"eating is likely not the best approach. If one wants to get really big you better include some dairy derived proteins in the form of pre and post WO shakes...some refined carbs with many meals....you know why? So you are HUNGRY! It will be a big enough pain in the ass to eat all that food but you will find it tough to do on a really low carb, low GI/Glycemic load diet. Right tool for the right job.
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Old 03-19-2007, 07:54 PM   #5
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Actually, my metabolic typing report says to avoid wheat. I'm also not supposed to have any kind of fruit juice at all at all. The grains that I can have (and they make a point of writing "optional" next to the grains on all the meal plans) are amaranth and triticale. I'm not even supposed to eat berries--only apples, pears and coconuts. And the apples can't be too ripe.

With my report I got a huge chart created to help me fine-tune my diet based on what ratios work best (i.e. feeling full and with a lot of energy and without any cravings, etc.) You write down what you eat each meal and then record how you feel 1-2 hours later.
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Old 03-21-2007, 08:20 PM   #6
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I agree with Robb. I always thought that blood typing diets were a load of crap, and initially thought the same of metabolic typing. However, I have since changed my views, sort of. There's no doubt that no person is exactly like another, and this applies directly to metabolism. Some people thrive on plant-based diets, others on meat-based. However, there is absolutely no need to pay someone $50 to tell you what proportions of macro nutrients (or micro nutrients) are optimal for you specific metabolism. The proponents of MT pray that you to believe that there is as much to it as they claim, because they want your money! I"ll tell you how to find your metabolic type right now. Limit all of your food choices to only Paleo foods. Eat as much of it as you want, whenever you want, in any combination that you want, to start. Tweak things around until you feel best. That's your metabolic type! Pretty simple. After that you can add in things like IF and supplements, and tinker some more.
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Old 03-21-2007, 09:32 PM   #7
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I have a friend who's a dietitian and is really into Paleo diet, cyclic low carb, etc. (y'all would like her) and she occassionally uses metabolic typing for her clients. She says the test isn't absolutely necessary, but in certain circumstances it is very helpful, especially if her clients are very out of touch with what foods make them feel healthy or if she can't figure out whether they're fast or slow oxidizers for whatever reason. When you are eating the correct types of foods your body starts to regulate your instinct for eating the right amounts of things, which makes following a diet more intuitive and less mechanical (but within some basic guidelines.) Unfortunately some people don't want to spend months or years or whatnot to tweak dietary combinations and don't have the money for genomics. For them I dare say MT would be a good start.

As far as the blood type diet, I don't think there's any science behind it... Also it says type A's should be vegetarian, and of course there is no vegetarian anthropological group anywhere. An herbalist on a different list I'm on pointed out that their information on lectins is inaccurate. There does seem to be a link between blood type and disease states, however.
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Old 03-22-2007, 06:04 AM   #8
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I kind of have to believe that for the most part....the body will adapt to whatever you give it....land on an island with only fruits and veg...it will learn to survive....or an island with only in-n-out burger....it will survive.....however there always could be some side effects from trying to live off something the body does not want. I would guess most people are geared towards a Paleo approach.....and stearing too heavily towards the carb metabolism belief will have more negative impacts long term than positive.
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:09 AM   #9
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I just feel like I would have saved a LOT of time and money had I figured out my MT in the first place, instead of going on the Zone, realizing it was too high in carbs and too low in fat (I'm an 87% fast oxidizer), trying Zone with Paleo foods and going insane trying to make it work (and micromanaging percentages instead of eating intuitively), having to read the Athlete's Zone, the Omega RX Zone and Inflammation Zone, oh and Optimal Hormonal Enhancement (or whatever it's called), then printing out a bunch of different complicated charts from the Zone and the MT page to try to figure out some things that way, etc. etc. It would have been a much better starting place to tweak things from. And supplements calibrated for my metabolic type just seem to work a little better. This is for ME, too...I LOVE tweaking. So how much better would it be to have a good starting point for someone who DOESN'T like tweaking? Anyway. 'Nuff said.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:18 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yael Grauer View Post
I just feel like I would have saved a LOT of time and money had I figured out my MT in the first place, instead of going on the Zone, realizing it was too high in carbs and too low in fat (I'm an 87% fast oxidizer), trying Zone with Paleo foods and going insane trying to make it work (and micromanaging percentages instead of eating intuitively), having to read the Athlete's Zone, the Omega RX Zone and Inflammation Zone, oh and Optimal Hormonal Enhancement (or whatever it's called), then printing out a bunch of different complicated charts from the Zone and the MT page to try to figure out some things that way, etc. etc. It would have been a much better starting place to tweak things from. And supplements calibrated for my metabolic type just seem to work a little better. This is for ME, too...I LOVE tweaking. So how much better would it be to have a good starting point for someone who DOESN'T like tweaking? Anyway. 'Nuff said.
Yael-
Are you then saying that with MT'ing you have achieved the body comp and performance you desire?

I just can not track down a straight answer on what constitutes a "fast vs slow oxidizer". Looking around the net I found some things like this:

Fast oxidizers tend to have poorer muscle definition than slow oxidizers. The fast oxidizer retains more water in the tissues, which contributes to poorer muscle definition. They often have a flabbier appearance, even though they may possess good strength. Fast oxidizers also tend to carry more weight on their trunk and have more slender arms and legs. Slow oxidizers tend to have less mass on the trunk and may carry more weight on the legs.

It sounds like fast oxidizers are insulin resistant...classic description of insulin resistance in fact. Even Barry Sears acknowledges that a certain percentage of people can tolerate a higher carb diet and maintain good hormonal response...for a time. the bottom line is a moderate glycemic load diet will mitigate advanced glycation end-products. here is another goody from another site:

Metabolic typing takes cognizance of the fact that each individual is different and has different nutritional requirements. Part of this is due to heredity. For example, Eskimos thrive on large quantities of fat and meat, while the natives on some Pacific islands thrive on an almost total vegetarian diet. Very few people in the United States are pure Sympathetic types or pure Parasympathetic types. However, by carefully answering the questions it becomes possible to determine whether one branch of the autonomic nervous system dominates.

Hmmmmm....I don't know. Hunter Gatherers, whether they are highly carnivorous like the Inuit or nearly vegetarian for parts of the year like the !kung are waylaid by the inclusion of modern foods, or even basic agricultural staples.

I am on board with the fact that stress affects people differently. Some get digestive issues, some get headaches. It's still the same stress!We need to eat and sleep well and exercise to be healthy. We need down time and socialization.

Sorry if I'm being a Dick here but I just have not seen good results come out of the MT stuff. Yael, throw me some resources and I will do some more tinkering.
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