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Sunday February 10 2008
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Derek M 2008-02-10
Interesting take on the kipping pull-up. I hadn't thought of that.

On the other hand, when fitness increases (especially for smaller people who become disproportionately better at bodyweight exercises than barbell), slow pull-ups won't cut it in a typical CF workout.

The best thing to do is probably to learn and master both styles, and vary the style sometimes to get the benefits of both.

Good food for thought. Thanks.
Greg Everett 2008-02-10
Yes, it's definitely not the best choice if the goal is a cycle time in a metabolic workout rapid enough to compete with more vertical kippers. But that aside, even within metCon training, it still may offer enough benefit to compensate for the slightly longer cycle time. The body is still expending productive effort despite the fact that the actual work number doesn't increase. So if you calculate power based on such effort instead of the physics definition of work, I think the numbers will be similar (but more importantly, more useful).

As a supplemental exercise for strength training, there's no question.
David 2008-02-10
What kind of camera do you use, Greg?
Greg Everett 2008-02-10
David -

Still is a Canon EOS 20D and 30D. Video is a Canon XL1s and a little cheap Canon.
Tom Brose 2008-02-10
I think the number of athletes who actually need to adopt a faster kip is very small. I compared OPTs 2:19 Fran video of one with Greg A and Annie. OPTs round of 21 takes 21 seconds, from initiation of kip to bottom of the last one. Greg does the same (with a hybrid frog style chin grip). in another vid, Kelly Moore uses a traditional kip and completes her 21 in 30 seconds.

The difference between OPT and Kelly, who i think everyone would agree are elite, comes out to about 19 seconds over the course of Fran. Thats not insignificant, but I think there are few people down in the time range where THAT is where they need to cut time down. Less rest and faster transitions are more important, until you approach that "prime" time that it takes to do the movements.

The shoulder flexibility benefit also is a limitation for some of us less than optimally flexible. I wish I had that nice gliding kip, as opposed to a spastic vertical approach. I am sure it allows for a little recovery, although it seems to chew up the hands worse.
Luca Z. 2008-02-10
What about the width of the grip? opt seams to have a much wider than average grip, therefor less travel from down to up, even in his handstand push ups the width is much wider than straight up, do you think that does help him go faster?
Greg Everett 2008-02-10
Luca -

James explained to me that he and Brett moved to the wider grip to save their elbows after moving to their style of kip, in which they drop straight down into the forward loaded position. This removes the arc on the trip down and consequently the ability to absorb some of that force. So yes, it helps him go faster because it's a shorter ROM, but it's really secondary to the kip he uses, which is the real source of his speed.
Luca Z. 2008-02-10
Good point, thanks
Derek M 2008-02-11
They use it to save their elbows? Is that really necessary, considering that both Annie and Greg A use vertical kips without flared elbows/wide grip?
Jeff G 2008-02-12
Can I just say how much I love that rest day discussions here center in questions which are directly related to what the site is about. You do a real bang-up job here, Greg and I wouldn't want you to change anything.
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